| presenceworkbook.pdf |
Reviews of the book, Presence: Human Purpose and the Field of the Future by Peter Senge, C. Otto Scharmer, Joseph Jaworksi and Betty Sue Flowers are followed below by excerpts from its pages. The file above, presenceworkbook.pdf, may be downloaded free of charge.
"A remarkable book, 'Presence' is a journey from the present to an unknown future, a journey of exploration rather than dogma, and a journey toward a vision of humanity at its highest. Like a good documentary film, 'Presence' is a book with 'emotional truth,' a wonderful combination of intellectual and visceral experience." - Robert Fritz, 'The Path of Least Resistance'
"Collective inner knowing allows the future to speak to the present—if we allow ourselves to be in the 'flow' of knowledge as it emerges. It is perhaps the one source of sustained innovation of the character and scale needed to redesign human communities." Roger Saillant, CEO, Plug Power (former executive, Ford Motore Company)
"At this turbulent juncture in human history, a whole new set of social innovatins promises to shift humanity away from its destructive path towards a brighter planetary civilization. Presencing and its U process is one of the most profound. It provides all who want to change the world not only with profound hope, but with a systematic and effective way to birth a sustainable planetary society." - Nicanor Perlas, Recipient of the 2003 Alternative Nobel Prize and the U.N. Environmental Program Global 500 Award
"If you believe, as I do, that an organization is ultimately a human community, then nothing is more important than how we sense our future and act to create it together. This is something all creative business leaders know yet have found almost impossible to talk about—until Presence." - Rich Teerlink, CEO (retured), Harley-Davidson
"'Presence' is a timely and altogether important book. Drawing on a leading-edge understanding of human learning and awareness, it offers a simple but effective gateway to our capacity to become change agents of the future—in business, work, play, and relationships. Finding our presence is finding the key to creative change and to our own future." - Ken Wilber, 'A Theory of Everything: An Integral Vision for Business, Politics, Science, and Spirituality'
:::
Excerpts from the book, "Presence:"
"....Everything is in everything." - physicist Henri Bortoft
"When we eventually grasp the wholeness of nature, it can be shocking. In nature, as Bortoft puts it, 'The part is a place for presencing the whole.' This is the awareness that is stolen from us when we accept the machine worldview of wholes assembled from replaceable parts." - page 5
"All learning integrates thinking and doing. All learning is about how we interact with the world and the types of capacities that develop from our interactions. What differs is the depth of awareness and the consequent source of action. If awareness never reaches beyond superficial events and current circumstances, actions will be reactions. If, on the other hand, we penetrate more deeply to see the larger wholes that generate 'what is' and our own connection to this wholeness, the source and effectiveness of our actions can change dramatically. .... We came to realize that both groups are really talking about the same process—the process whereby we learn to 'presence' an emerging whole, to become what George Bernard Shaw called 'a force of nature.'" - pages 9-10
"... The core capacity needed for accessing the field of the future is presence. We first thought of presence as being fully conscious and aware in the present moment. Then we began to appreciate presence as deep listening, of being open beyond one's preconceptions and historical ways of making sense. We came to see the importance of letting go of old identities and the need to control and, as Salk said, making choices to serve the evolution of life. Ultimately, we came to see all these aspects of presence as leading to a state of 'letting come,' of consciously participating in a larger field for change. When this happens, the field shifts, and the forces shaping a situation can shift from re-creating the past to manifesting or realizing an emerging future." - pages 11-12
We are part of a future seeking to emerge. (re-worded from page 16)
"The first three parts of this book correspond to the process of deepening collective learning as we have come to understand it. This starts with learning to see, moves on to opening to a new awareness of what is emerging and our part in it, and finally leads to action that spontaneously serves and is supported by the evolving whole. The fourth and final section places this deeper learning in the context of a more integrative science, spirituality, and practice of leadership." - page 16
"In practice, suspension requires patience and a willingness not to impose pre-established frameworks or mental models on what we are seeing. If we can simply observe without forming conclusions as to what our observations mean and allow ourselves to sit with all the seemingly unrelated bits and pieces of information we see, fresh ways to understand a situation can eventually emerge." - page 31
"Enhancing awareness doesn't require a search and destroy mission against our internal fears or judgments. It only requires recognizing and acknowledging them. Suspending assumptions, individually or collectively, is easier said than done. The challenges in organizations start with the frenetic pace many people feel compelled to maintain. Often management teams simply don't know how to stop, nor do they know how to integrate suspension into normal ways of working together. But breakthroughs come when people learn how to take the time to stop and examine their assumptions." - pages 32-33
"The capacity to suspend established ways of seeing is essential for all important scientific discoveries." - page 35
"When you consider the risks involved in suspending, you begin to appreciate not only the courage required but also the personal work. By 'personal work,' we mean cultivating the ability to be more aware of our thoughts, including those—like 'I am here and you are there'—that arise so quietly in our awareness that they remain invisible to us as thoughts.... What matters is not the particular method we choose but our willingness to make our own cultivation a central aspect of our life." - page 37
"When we truly suspend taken-for-granted ways of seeing the world, what we start to see can be disorienting and disturbing, and strong emotions like fear and anger arise, which are hard to separate from what we see. To the extent we're trying to avoid these emotions, we'll avoid suspending. To the extent we can't talk about any of this, it limits all of us. We all know that a team that can't tell the truth about its emotional state limits its strategic thinking as well, because the cognitive and emotional are so connected...." - page 40
"An empowering awareness of the whole requires a fundamental shift in the relationship between 'seer' and 'seen.' When the subject-object duality that is basic to our habitual awareness begins to dissolve, we shift from looking 'out at the world' from the viewpoint of a detached observer to looking from 'inside' what is being observed. Learning to see begins when we stop projecting our habitual assumptions and start to see realty freshly. It continues when we can see our connection to that reality more clearly." - page 41
"The key to 'seeing from the whole' is developing the capacity not only to suspend our assumptions but to 'redirect' our awareness toward the generative process that lies behind what we see." - page 42
"When Otto interviewed cognitive scientist Francisco Varela at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, Varela referred to redirection as 'turning our attention toward the source rather than the object.' If suspension is the first 'basic gesture' of enhancing awareness, redirection is the second.
"'What's funny about suspension is that when many people do it, nothing much happens,' said Verala. 'That's why most people would say, 'This introspection thing doesn't work. I look, and nothing happens.' Nothing happens at the beginning because the whole point is that after suspension, you have to tolerate that nothing is happening. Staying with it is the key, because suspension then allows for redirection. Suspensions leads to seeing emerging events, contents, patterns, whatever. Then, you can actually redirect your attention to them. That's where the new is.'"
"Redirecting attention 'toward the source' encompasses empathy but goes further. Dissolving boundaries between seer and seen leads not only to a deep sense of connection but also to a heightened sense of change. What first appeared as fixed or even rigid begins to appear more dynamic because we're sensing the reality as it is being created, and we sense our part in creating it. This shift is challenging to explain in the abstract but real and powerful when it occurs." - pages 42-43
"One reason that the shift to seeing from the whole rarely occurs is that it is poorly understood. And as Varela suggests, the capacity for redirection—turning our attention toward the source—builds on the capacity for suspension. Until people can start to see their habitual ways of interpreting a situation, they can't really step into a new awareness....
"When Otto asked physicist Henri Bortoft what is required to move beyond suspension to develop the capacity for redirection, Bortroft said, 'You have to cultivate a quality of perception that is striving outwards, from the whole to the part.' He explained that our attention naturally gravitates towards concrete particulars. If we then try to see 'the larger system,' we usually look at how one part interacts with others and try to infer what the larger pattern of interactions must be—we try to figure out the whole from the parts through an intellectual process of abstracting. Since figuring out the larger system is so hard, we often just give up and go back to concentrating on the parts. But there is another approach: understanding the whole to be found in the parts.
"Bortoft illustrated this other approach by explaining how Goethe had studied plants. 'It takes time. You have to slow down. You see, and you follow every detail—of a leaf, for example—in your imagination. This process is what Goethe called 'exact sensorial imagination.' You look at a leaf, and you create the shape of the leaf as precisely as possible in your mind. You move around the shape of the leaf in your mind, following every detail until the leaf becomes an image in your mind. You do this with one leaf, with another leaf, and so on, and suddenly you sense a movement, and you begin to see not the individual leaf but the dynamic movement'—the living field of the plant that creates the leaf.
"The experience Bortroft describes is similar to what happens when something that was in the background of our perception suddenly shifts to the foreground. The object—the leaf—was in the foreground, and the dynamic living process that generates the leaf was in the background. The living process is usually less evident to us—yet it's the formative field from which the object arises. When they switch and the living process is in the foreground, then we 'see from the whole.' This shift of the living process to the foreground of our awareness characterizes the essence of redirection." - page 46
(the authors explain how this shift of awareness worked within a large engineering program that had about a thousand engineers divided into more than a dozen teams, who were responsible for developing a new car)
".... Such moments of redirection can be both shocking and instantly empowering. If 'we' are creating the problems we have now, then we can also create something different. Bortroft calls this direct understanding of the generative process underlying present reality 'encountering the authentic whole.' By contrast, when we try to figure out a larger system intellectually, at best we end up with a conceptual understanding, what Bortroft calls 'the counterfeit whole.' When we encounter the authentic whole, we encounter life at work, and we are transformed from passive observers to active participants in ways that intellectual understanding can never achieve." - pages 47 and 48
:::
An emerging future, "a different sort of knowing," and the U theory
"....this larger reality we connect with is not just sitting there. It's unfolding or emerging, and we're part of that emergence. There's an emerging future that depends upon us." - page 79
"As we continued to talk about Adam's experience in Guatemala and Otto's fire story, we gradually realized that an understanding that had been incubating for many years was becoming clearer. This understanding had been embedded in the work Joseph and Otto had been engaged in for several years, and in experiences each of us had had when we encountered "an emerging future that depended upon us." Insights from Joseph and Otto's interviews now started to combine with our direct experience to reveal the process at work in these extraordinary moments. Many of the people Joseph and Otto interviewed had illuminated different aspects of this process, and one, economist Brian Arthur, had laid out a complete picture.
"In 1999, when Otto and Joseph first interviewed him, Arthur talked about the need to 'sense an emerging future' in order to meet the challenges of managing in an increasingly technology-based economy.
"....Arthur's view encompassed suspension and redirection, but it also linked those to a different way in which action arises, through a process he called 'a different sort of knowing.' 'You observe and observe and let this experience well up into something appropriate. In a sense, there's no decision-making,' he said. 'What to do just becomes obvious. You can't rush it. Much of it depends on where you're coming from and who you are as a person. All you can do is position yourself according to your unfolding vision of what is coming. A totally different set of rules applies. You need to 'feel out' what to do. You hang back, you observe. You're more like a surfer or a really good race car driver. You don't act out of deduction, you act out of an inner feel, making sense as you go. You're not even thinking. You're at one with the situation." - pages 84 and 85
"'What does it mean to act in the world and not on the world?' In the standard model, the change leader or leaders are separate from what they're seeking to change. For example, executives seek to 'change their organization,' as if it were an entity separate from themselves. They then find themselves frustrated when others resist the planned changes, again externalizing the difficulty. Indeed, the very terms 'change program' or 'rolling out the change initiative' imply the imposition of human will on a presumed external reality. {{Gary's note: 'Athene's Theory of Everything' also states, 'Nothing is external.'}}
"But the U theory suggests a different stance of 'co-creation' between the individual or collective and the larger world. The self and the world are inescapably interconnected. The self doesn't react to a reality outside, nor does it create something new in isolation—rather, like the seed of a tree, it becomes the gateway for the coming into being of a new world. Ultimately, it becomes impossible to say, 'I'm doing this' or 'We're doing this' because the experience is one of unbroken awareness and action. This sensibility was beautifully expressed more than two thousand years ago in the Bhagavad Gita: 'All actions are wrought by the qualities of nature only. The self, deluded by egoism, thinketh: 'I am the doer.'" - page 92
"One way to understand this passage through the eye of the needle is as a continuation of the transformation of the relationship between self and world that begins with sensing. When we start down the left side of the U, we experience wht world as something given, something 'out there.' Gradually, we shift our perception to seeing from inside the living process underlying reality. Then, as we move up the right-hand side of the U, we start to experience wht world as unfolding through us. On the left-hand side of the U, the world is 'as it is' and later 'as it emerges'; on the right-hand side the world is 'coming into being through us.' Starting down the left-hand side, the self is an observer of this exterior world, which is a creation of the past. Starting up the right-hand side, the self turns into a source through which the future begins to emerge." - page 103
"Presence: Human Purpose and the Field of the Future" by Peter Senge, C. Otto Scharmer, Joseph Jaworksi and Betty Sue Flowers
"A remarkable book, 'Presence' is a journey from the present to an unknown future, a journey of exploration rather than dogma, and a journey toward a vision of humanity at its highest. Like a good documentary film, 'Presence' is a book with 'emotional truth,' a wonderful combination of intellectual and visceral experience." - Robert Fritz, 'The Path of Least Resistance'
"Collective inner knowing allows the future to speak to the present—if we allow ourselves to be in the 'flow' of knowledge as it emerges. It is perhaps the one source of sustained innovation of the character and scale needed to redesign human communities." Roger Saillant, CEO, Plug Power (former executive, Ford Motore Company)
"At this turbulent juncture in human history, a whole new set of social innovatins promises to shift humanity away from its destructive path towards a brighter planetary civilization. Presencing and its U process is one of the most profound. It provides all who want to change the world not only with profound hope, but with a systematic and effective way to birth a sustainable planetary society." - Nicanor Perlas, Recipient of the 2003 Alternative Nobel Prize and the U.N. Environmental Program Global 500 Award
"If you believe, as I do, that an organization is ultimately a human community, then nothing is more important than how we sense our future and act to create it together. This is something all creative business leaders know yet have found almost impossible to talk about—until Presence." - Rich Teerlink, CEO (retured), Harley-Davidson
"'Presence' is a timely and altogether important book. Drawing on a leading-edge understanding of human learning and awareness, it offers a simple but effective gateway to our capacity to become change agents of the future—in business, work, play, and relationships. Finding our presence is finding the key to creative change and to our own future." - Ken Wilber, 'A Theory of Everything: An Integral Vision for Business, Politics, Science, and Spirituality'
:::
Excerpts from the book, "Presence:"
"....Everything is in everything." - physicist Henri Bortoft
"When we eventually grasp the wholeness of nature, it can be shocking. In nature, as Bortoft puts it, 'The part is a place for presencing the whole.' This is the awareness that is stolen from us when we accept the machine worldview of wholes assembled from replaceable parts." - page 5
"All learning integrates thinking and doing. All learning is about how we interact with the world and the types of capacities that develop from our interactions. What differs is the depth of awareness and the consequent source of action. If awareness never reaches beyond superficial events and current circumstances, actions will be reactions. If, on the other hand, we penetrate more deeply to see the larger wholes that generate 'what is' and our own connection to this wholeness, the source and effectiveness of our actions can change dramatically. .... We came to realize that both groups are really talking about the same process—the process whereby we learn to 'presence' an emerging whole, to become what George Bernard Shaw called 'a force of nature.'" - pages 9-10
"... The core capacity needed for accessing the field of the future is presence. We first thought of presence as being fully conscious and aware in the present moment. Then we began to appreciate presence as deep listening, of being open beyond one's preconceptions and historical ways of making sense. We came to see the importance of letting go of old identities and the need to control and, as Salk said, making choices to serve the evolution of life. Ultimately, we came to see all these aspects of presence as leading to a state of 'letting come,' of consciously participating in a larger field for change. When this happens, the field shifts, and the forces shaping a situation can shift from re-creating the past to manifesting or realizing an emerging future." - pages 11-12
We are part of a future seeking to emerge. (re-worded from page 16)
"The first three parts of this book correspond to the process of deepening collective learning as we have come to understand it. This starts with learning to see, moves on to opening to a new awareness of what is emerging and our part in it, and finally leads to action that spontaneously serves and is supported by the evolving whole. The fourth and final section places this deeper learning in the context of a more integrative science, spirituality, and practice of leadership." - page 16
"In practice, suspension requires patience and a willingness not to impose pre-established frameworks or mental models on what we are seeing. If we can simply observe without forming conclusions as to what our observations mean and allow ourselves to sit with all the seemingly unrelated bits and pieces of information we see, fresh ways to understand a situation can eventually emerge." - page 31
"Enhancing awareness doesn't require a search and destroy mission against our internal fears or judgments. It only requires recognizing and acknowledging them. Suspending assumptions, individually or collectively, is easier said than done. The challenges in organizations start with the frenetic pace many people feel compelled to maintain. Often management teams simply don't know how to stop, nor do they know how to integrate suspension into normal ways of working together. But breakthroughs come when people learn how to take the time to stop and examine their assumptions." - pages 32-33
"The capacity to suspend established ways of seeing is essential for all important scientific discoveries." - page 35
"When you consider the risks involved in suspending, you begin to appreciate not only the courage required but also the personal work. By 'personal work,' we mean cultivating the ability to be more aware of our thoughts, including those—like 'I am here and you are there'—that arise so quietly in our awareness that they remain invisible to us as thoughts.... What matters is not the particular method we choose but our willingness to make our own cultivation a central aspect of our life." - page 37
"When we truly suspend taken-for-granted ways of seeing the world, what we start to see can be disorienting and disturbing, and strong emotions like fear and anger arise, which are hard to separate from what we see. To the extent we're trying to avoid these emotions, we'll avoid suspending. To the extent we can't talk about any of this, it limits all of us. We all know that a team that can't tell the truth about its emotional state limits its strategic thinking as well, because the cognitive and emotional are so connected...." - page 40
"An empowering awareness of the whole requires a fundamental shift in the relationship between 'seer' and 'seen.' When the subject-object duality that is basic to our habitual awareness begins to dissolve, we shift from looking 'out at the world' from the viewpoint of a detached observer to looking from 'inside' what is being observed. Learning to see begins when we stop projecting our habitual assumptions and start to see realty freshly. It continues when we can see our connection to that reality more clearly." - page 41
"The key to 'seeing from the whole' is developing the capacity not only to suspend our assumptions but to 'redirect' our awareness toward the generative process that lies behind what we see." - page 42
"When Otto interviewed cognitive scientist Francisco Varela at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, Varela referred to redirection as 'turning our attention toward the source rather than the object.' If suspension is the first 'basic gesture' of enhancing awareness, redirection is the second.
"'What's funny about suspension is that when many people do it, nothing much happens,' said Verala. 'That's why most people would say, 'This introspection thing doesn't work. I look, and nothing happens.' Nothing happens at the beginning because the whole point is that after suspension, you have to tolerate that nothing is happening. Staying with it is the key, because suspension then allows for redirection. Suspensions leads to seeing emerging events, contents, patterns, whatever. Then, you can actually redirect your attention to them. That's where the new is.'"
"Redirecting attention 'toward the source' encompasses empathy but goes further. Dissolving boundaries between seer and seen leads not only to a deep sense of connection but also to a heightened sense of change. What first appeared as fixed or even rigid begins to appear more dynamic because we're sensing the reality as it is being created, and we sense our part in creating it. This shift is challenging to explain in the abstract but real and powerful when it occurs." - pages 42-43
"One reason that the shift to seeing from the whole rarely occurs is that it is poorly understood. And as Varela suggests, the capacity for redirection—turning our attention toward the source—builds on the capacity for suspension. Until people can start to see their habitual ways of interpreting a situation, they can't really step into a new awareness....
"When Otto asked physicist Henri Bortoft what is required to move beyond suspension to develop the capacity for redirection, Bortroft said, 'You have to cultivate a quality of perception that is striving outwards, from the whole to the part.' He explained that our attention naturally gravitates towards concrete particulars. If we then try to see 'the larger system,' we usually look at how one part interacts with others and try to infer what the larger pattern of interactions must be—we try to figure out the whole from the parts through an intellectual process of abstracting. Since figuring out the larger system is so hard, we often just give up and go back to concentrating on the parts. But there is another approach: understanding the whole to be found in the parts.
"Bortoft illustrated this other approach by explaining how Goethe had studied plants. 'It takes time. You have to slow down. You see, and you follow every detail—of a leaf, for example—in your imagination. This process is what Goethe called 'exact sensorial imagination.' You look at a leaf, and you create the shape of the leaf as precisely as possible in your mind. You move around the shape of the leaf in your mind, following every detail until the leaf becomes an image in your mind. You do this with one leaf, with another leaf, and so on, and suddenly you sense a movement, and you begin to see not the individual leaf but the dynamic movement'—the living field of the plant that creates the leaf.
"The experience Bortroft describes is similar to what happens when something that was in the background of our perception suddenly shifts to the foreground. The object—the leaf—was in the foreground, and the dynamic living process that generates the leaf was in the background. The living process is usually less evident to us—yet it's the formative field from which the object arises. When they switch and the living process is in the foreground, then we 'see from the whole.' This shift of the living process to the foreground of our awareness characterizes the essence of redirection." - page 46
(the authors explain how this shift of awareness worked within a large engineering program that had about a thousand engineers divided into more than a dozen teams, who were responsible for developing a new car)
".... Such moments of redirection can be both shocking and instantly empowering. If 'we' are creating the problems we have now, then we can also create something different. Bortroft calls this direct understanding of the generative process underlying present reality 'encountering the authentic whole.' By contrast, when we try to figure out a larger system intellectually, at best we end up with a conceptual understanding, what Bortroft calls 'the counterfeit whole.' When we encounter the authentic whole, we encounter life at work, and we are transformed from passive observers to active participants in ways that intellectual understanding can never achieve." - pages 47 and 48
:::
An emerging future, "a different sort of knowing," and the U theory
"....this larger reality we connect with is not just sitting there. It's unfolding or emerging, and we're part of that emergence. There's an emerging future that depends upon us." - page 79
"As we continued to talk about Adam's experience in Guatemala and Otto's fire story, we gradually realized that an understanding that had been incubating for many years was becoming clearer. This understanding had been embedded in the work Joseph and Otto had been engaged in for several years, and in experiences each of us had had when we encountered "an emerging future that depended upon us." Insights from Joseph and Otto's interviews now started to combine with our direct experience to reveal the process at work in these extraordinary moments. Many of the people Joseph and Otto interviewed had illuminated different aspects of this process, and one, economist Brian Arthur, had laid out a complete picture.
"In 1999, when Otto and Joseph first interviewed him, Arthur talked about the need to 'sense an emerging future' in order to meet the challenges of managing in an increasingly technology-based economy.
"....Arthur's view encompassed suspension and redirection, but it also linked those to a different way in which action arises, through a process he called 'a different sort of knowing.' 'You observe and observe and let this experience well up into something appropriate. In a sense, there's no decision-making,' he said. 'What to do just becomes obvious. You can't rush it. Much of it depends on where you're coming from and who you are as a person. All you can do is position yourself according to your unfolding vision of what is coming. A totally different set of rules applies. You need to 'feel out' what to do. You hang back, you observe. You're more like a surfer or a really good race car driver. You don't act out of deduction, you act out of an inner feel, making sense as you go. You're not even thinking. You're at one with the situation." - pages 84 and 85
"'What does it mean to act in the world and not on the world?' In the standard model, the change leader or leaders are separate from what they're seeking to change. For example, executives seek to 'change their organization,' as if it were an entity separate from themselves. They then find themselves frustrated when others resist the planned changes, again externalizing the difficulty. Indeed, the very terms 'change program' or 'rolling out the change initiative' imply the imposition of human will on a presumed external reality. {{Gary's note: 'Athene's Theory of Everything' also states, 'Nothing is external.'}}
"But the U theory suggests a different stance of 'co-creation' between the individual or collective and the larger world. The self and the world are inescapably interconnected. The self doesn't react to a reality outside, nor does it create something new in isolation—rather, like the seed of a tree, it becomes the gateway for the coming into being of a new world. Ultimately, it becomes impossible to say, 'I'm doing this' or 'We're doing this' because the experience is one of unbroken awareness and action. This sensibility was beautifully expressed more than two thousand years ago in the Bhagavad Gita: 'All actions are wrought by the qualities of nature only. The self, deluded by egoism, thinketh: 'I am the doer.'" - page 92
"One way to understand this passage through the eye of the needle is as a continuation of the transformation of the relationship between self and world that begins with sensing. When we start down the left side of the U, we experience wht world as something given, something 'out there.' Gradually, we shift our perception to seeing from inside the living process underlying reality. Then, as we move up the right-hand side of the U, we start to experience wht world as unfolding through us. On the left-hand side of the U, the world is 'as it is' and later 'as it emerges'; on the right-hand side the world is 'coming into being through us.' Starting down the left-hand side, the self is an observer of this exterior world, which is a creation of the past. Starting up the right-hand side, the self turns into a source through which the future begins to emerge." - page 103
"Presence: Human Purpose and the Field of the Future" by Peter Senge, C. Otto Scharmer, Joseph Jaworksi and Betty Sue Flowers
